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Haplogrup L, T, R ve Haplotipler Hakkında Bir Tartışma

Burada Haplogroup T'nin Türkiye-Türkistan Karşılaştırması yapılıyor ve haplogrubun Türk Kökeni kanıtlanıyor.

Re: Haplogrup L, T, R ve Haplotipler Hakkında Bir Tartışma

Mesajgönderen TurkmenCopur » 05 Şub 2015, 04:02

What do you think about the study paper at ht tp:// biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2014/05/03/004705.full.pdf ? Look at the text in page 3 and the graphs at figure 1.
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Re: Haplogrup L, T, R ve Haplotipler Hakkında Bir Tartışma

Mesajgönderen TurkmenCopur » 12 Şub 2015, 20:02

I see that in the 2015 study of Wolfgang Haak, 2 haplogroups(3 subgroups) are found from the markers that are children of marker K*-M9, namely Y haplogroups R(R1a, R1b) and T(T1a). As i mentioned at earlier topics at first link and second link, i noticed and wrote about the similarity between the Y-STR haplotypes of T and R.

Look at these results at the Wolfgang Haak 2015 study:

T1a: Germany - 5207-5070 BCE
G2a2a: Germany - 5206-5052 BCE
R*: Germany - 3645-3537 BCE
R1a1: Karelia, Russia - 5500-5000 BCE
R1a1a1: Germany - 2473-2348 BCE
R1a1a1b1a2: Germany - 1113-1021 BCE
R1b1a: Russia, Samara - 5650-5555 BCE
R1b1: Spain - 5178-5066 BCE
R1b1a2a2: Russia, Samara - 3339-2917 BCE
R1b1a2a1a2: Germany - 2296-2206 BCE

Look at these results at the Hongjie Li 2012 study:

11x R1a1a: China, Xiaohe, Xinjiang - 1500-2000 BCE(3500-4000 YBP)
1x K*: China, Xiaohe, Xinjiang - 1500-2000 BCE(3500-4000 YBP)

The existance of K* and R1a1a in the ancient Xiaohe graves means that a specific group of haplogroups after K* could have lived together with R1a groups even before the occuring of certain mutations. Looking at the haplogroups in the Haak 2015 study, you can see that only R1b and T1a are found within the correlated eras(1100-5700 BCE).

Look at these results at the Matthew C. Dulik 2011 study:

Modern Kazakh Turks from South-West Altai:


C3: 56,6%
G1: 10%
G2a: 6,7%
J2a: 3,3%
O3a3c: 3,3%
Q1a3: 3,3%
R1a1* (xR1a1a-e): 3,3%
R1b1b1: 10%
T1a: 3,3%

It shows almost the same structure as the results in the Wolfgang Haak 2015 study, because G, R1a, R1b and T1a are found together.

And now, look at these results at the A.Z. Biro 2009 study:

Modern Madjar Kazakh Turks from Kazakhstan, Torgay:


G1a: 86,7%
J2: 6,7%
K*(subtested, belongs to marker M9): 2,2%
F*: 2,2%
N: 2,2%

We see that haplogroup G is the dominating one here, and F* is also found in 5177-5068 BCE ancient grave from the Haak 2015 study.

At the Balaresque 2015 study we see that Karakalpak Turks from Uzbekistan have 26% of G2a, 9,3% of R1a and 3,7% of R1b.

At the Sengupta 2006 study, we see that Uygur Turks from Xinjiang have 50% of R1b. At the Khusnutdinova 2009 study, we see that Bashkir Turks from Bashkiria have 86% of R1b. At the Myres 2010 study, we see that Bashkir Turks from Bashkiria have 76% of R1b(also R1b1).

We already know of the various R1a results in a lot of Turkish tribes.

And now, look at the results at the M. A. Gubina 2013 study:

Modern Kazakh Turks from Altai–Sayan region:

C3c: 40,8%
K*(xL,N,O,P)(probably most are T1a): 38,8%
R1a1: 6,1%
J2: 6,1%
D: 4,1%
N: 4,1%

With a conclusion i think that a specific group of haplogroups(like G, J2, L, R1a, R1b, T1a, ...) found in Europe of 6000-1000 BCE have their origins in the Altai mountains regions and kept living together although the occurence of mutations in the later milleniums. They migrated together from Altaian regions to areas like Xinjiang, Siberian, Caucasian and European regions. I think that the dna of ancient Sumerians, Hitites, Scythians, Huns and Turks will show very similar patterns of what i have described above.

I think the academicians shoulds start testing ancient dna of Altaian regions with greater number of samples. We need tens of thousands of results from ancient Central-East Asian and European regions to make healthy conclusions. What i see now, is that most academicians and profit gaining leading organizations like the National Genographics are making a ridiculous clown out of their selves, because they change their ideas from time to time, and also each time they are so confident they are true, but then later when their hypothesis is proven to be false, they dont care. I can say that for example Spencer Wells from the National Genographics project has earned billions of dollars out of the dna marketing based on the very wrong migration routes they have made up without thinking scientifically. I think that academicians should not worry about the fancy articles they are eager to write for good or evil minded and political purposes, but should make progress in the testing of thousands of ancient dna. Modern dna does not show anything, we must use the historical facts to identify and be 100% sure of the locations of ancient medieval graves(500BC-1500AC) and then test the ancient dna samples of these and compare these with older ancient graves from for example early Neolithic eras, or maybe even much earlier.
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Re: Haplogrup L, T, R ve Haplotipler Hakkında Bir Tartışma

Mesajgönderen TurkmenCopur » 07 May 2015, 02:47

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread. ... NA-T/page8

Humanist yazdı:T because the bigest concentrations are ...assyria.....zargos mountains....dagestan ( a triangle incorporating, Armenians, azeri, lezkins and others, mainly east side of caspian sea.)

We must be looking at different frequency maps then, because I do not agree on that triangle. Excluding the Alawites and Druze, the triangle that you describe better defines the concentration of R1b in the ME. Not Y-DNA T.


Hi there, Humanist and Vettor. I do not agree with the data provided by you about the highest concentration/frequency of Y chromosome haplogroup T. Recently i have read a very important article about the origin of haplogroup T at the following page: viewtopic.php?f=87&t=12277. I strongly suggest everyone that is interested in finding the true origin of haplogroup T, to read this article. With kind regards to all of you.

Humanist yazdı:What are you not agreeing with? The fact that some of the highest frequencies of Y-DNA T among modern populations occur in the Middle East? That is an irrefutable fact. The question of Y-DNA T's origin, however, is a different story. I do not know where it originated. And we will likely never know. What are you suggesting by your link? That Y-DNA T is associated with Turkic peoples?


Yes, that is what i am suggesting. If you are using an argument like "highest frequencies", then please feel free to share the data that is backing up your argument. What are the numbers in the Middle East, which populations? Which studies, what is the name of the author of the academic paper? The link i found gives solid data about the Turk origin of haplogroup T, making a reliable analysis. On the contrary, the arguments that you are providing do not base on academic study results. Then, what does it base on, could you please enlighten me?

vettor yazdı:unsure...it states T as 15 % there

but the Dulik 2011 paper I was told has
[COLOR="#FF0000"]Kazakhs Kazakh (Turkic) Kosh-Agachski Raion 19/49 [/COLOR]38.8% < T YDna


I will only say this
LT-P326 is the union between ydna T and ydna L ...........its origins I have seen are stated in the Sind Valley ( Kashmir ), until someone states where L and T split apart is when I believe anything else. Any African, middle-east or Levant origin is only a dream

IMO, ............T ( ydna ) formed somewhere north or west of the Himalayas , maybe Pamir


M. A. Gubina(2013) finds 38,8%(19/49) of haplogroup T among Kosh-Agach tribes of the Kazakh Turks who live in the Altai Republic.

Not to forget the finding of Pille Hallast(2015) in which he states that the Bhutanese person(between border of China and India) with ID "Bhu-1892" has the most basal haplotype of haplogroup T. This correlates with the T that was found among the Altaian Kazakh Turks and the Dravidians that speak a language that is related to the Ural-Altai language group.

Not to forget the finding of Hongyang Xu(2014), with 27,3%(3/11) of T that was found among the Quechua tribe of the Natives of Peru.

M. Eaaswarkhanth(2009) finds 28%(7/25) of haplogroup T among the Iranian Shia Muslim population who livein India. V. Grugni(2012) finds 7.9%(5/63) of haplogroup T among the Azerbaijan Turks who live in Iran. The ancient Turk tribes like the Hyderabad(18th-20th centuries AD), Ghaznavid(10th-12th centuries AD), Mamlukid(12th-13th centuries AD), Safavid until Kajar(15th-20th centuries AD), Timurid and Ilkhanid(13th-15th centuries AD) ruled the regions between modern Iran and India, and these ancient Turks were the ones that spread the Turko-Islam culture(which transformed later in some regions into a Turkish version of Shia) of Khalach Mansoor, Khoja Akhmet Yassawi and Haji Bektash Veli into India, Iran and Azerbaijan.

And what do you think about this schema?

Resim

And what is your opinion about the K-R results found in ancient Mongolia in the unofficial preview paper of Kim Kijeong(2007), i think they could belong to L or T. Not to forget the L1a that was found among the 15th century Sayyid Ajjal Shams al-Din Omar with Turk origin.

Resim

S. Sengupta(2006) finds 12,5%(1/8) of haplogroup T among the Xibo tribe whom speak an Altaic language.

Many more data is available at the source links i provide in my first post, viewtopic.php?f=229&t=12267, viewforum.php?f=229, viewforum.php?f=87, and viewtopic.php?f=87&t=12277&p=15223.
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Re: Haplogrup L, T, R ve Haplotipler Hakkında Bir Tartışma

Mesajgönderen TurkmenCopur » 07 May 2015, 03:00

Humanist yazdı:I honestly do not feel like regurgitating information that has been discussed many, many times before. There is enough information posted here and elsewhere on the forum. From both academic and publicly available data. [COLOR="#000000"]If you believe that Y-DNA T is of Turkic origins, that is fine.[/COLOR] You are certainly entitled to your opinion.


If you have an argument, you should back it up with your sources and show your data. If someone refuses to act this way, it means that he/she is not trustworthiness. I am sorry but the arguments of such people are not to be taken seriosly, my apologies but this is the reality...
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Re: Haplogrup L, T, R ve Haplotipler Hakkında Bir Tartışma

Mesajgönderen TurkmenCopur » 07 May 2015, 04:14

newtoboard yazdı:Dravidian isnt related to Altaic languages. And L1a, T and R1a in South Asia have nothing to do with Turkic intrusion. If that was the case we should see other y lineages common in Turks in South Asia as well. Also the idea that Turks made any sort of impact on tribals with y T is beyond laughable.


It is actually very related to the Altaic languages, in fact Altaic, Uralic and Dravidian languages are like brothers, and they all are originated from the Proto Turk Sumerian language. I advise you to read the article that is located at the following page: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10966 . A short quotation of it:

Modern Kannada, a Dravidian language of great antiquity, possesses several words which bear a striking similarity, in sound and meaning, to words in modern Turkish. Another apparent common feature is ‘agglutination’, with several suffixes being nearly identical in the two languages. These may indicate that early Altaic (the basis of Turkish) was spoken in the Indian sub-continent prior to the arrival of the Indo-Iranian peoples. It appears that the languages of the sub-continent may have evolved from early forms of Altaic, Indo-Iranian and Dravidian. If borne out by further study, these preliminary findings would be of immense significance to the cultural and linguistic history of the south Asian region.


R1a is found among the ancient samples of Turk Sakha's and the Eastern Turk Huns(Xiongnu), is there any older ethnically non Turk(linguistic and historical evidence) ancient dna study about a South Asian grave in which L1a, T and R1a are found? You forget that since the White Huns(Hephthalites), Turks have ruled South Asian regions for approximately 1500 years(400 - 1900 AD). And i am not talking about an intrusion, i am talking about the fact that the Dravidians are just like the Turks, the descendants of the Proto Turk Sumerians(Kangars/Kengers)(< 5000 BCE). The one with insufficient historical IQ is the one that doesnt make sense, and is to be not taken seriously :)
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Re: Haplogrup L, T, R ve Haplotipler Hakkında Bir Tartışma

Mesajgönderen TurkmenCopur » 07 May 2015, 04:19

jesus yazdı:Oh my god, not you again. Sayyid Ajjal was not of Turkic origin, just because Bukhara is in Uzbekistan doesn't mean everybody living there is Uzbek. Bukhara is still a mainly Tajik city, 800 years ago the whole region had more Iranic speaking people. No sources mention that Sayyid Ajjal is of a turkic origin.
http://books.google.com/books?id=jFIORCFTA78C&pg=PA252&lpg=PA252&dq=yunnan+sayyid+mongols+prince&source=bl&ots=ScXC1w1mgx&sig=s4dvVWsiKCe49N64l3z6NmbX6O8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bIC5UJLXDqjn0QHd7IHYBQ&ved=0CEAQ6AEwBDgU#v=onepage&q=yunnan%20sayyid%20mongols%20prince&f=false
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1310.5466.pdf


Between the years 1400 - 1500 AD, the modern family descendants of Sayyid Ajjal Shams al-Din Omar and later Zheng He(great grandson of Sayyid Ajjal Shams al-Din Omar), who lived in the Yuan state, belonged to the Y-DNA haplogroup L1a. Again, according to the academicians that are in fact Chinese and USA CIA intelligence agents, Sayyid Ajjal Shams al-Din Omar was of Persian origin, however the fact is that this not logical conclusion is a big LIE! Sayyid Ajjal Shams al-Din Omar is of Turkish ethnic origin.

At the source named "Jāmiʻat al-Malik ʻAbd al-ʻAzīz. Maʻhad Shuʻūn al Aqallīyat al-Muslimah" it is clearly mentioned that Sayyid Ajjal Shams al-Din Omar is of Turkish ethnic origin. You all know that between the 11th and 13th centuries AD, Uzbekistan-Bukhara was ruled by the Turkish state of the Khwarazm Shahs that were of Turkish ethnic origin. Because of the by the strengthening of the Selcukid and Mongol states, the state of the Khwarazm Shahs is falling down, and because of this the family with Turkish ethnic origin of Sayyid Ajjal Shams al-Din Omar becomes a state official of the empire of Genghis Khan. And also, it is already a fact that the family trees of Sayyid Ajjal Shams al-Din Omar shows that his family settled into China within the Song dynasty(960 - 1279 AD). And this shows, that during the handover(transition) period between the Khwarazm Shah and the Mongol states, his family settled into the lands of the Mongol empire(China is part of the Mongol empire). While this whole subject is that simple, it is very worrisome to see that the Chinese and Germanic academicians which have hate crime feelings(against Turks) in their hearths, are on purpose making such conclusions that are not in accordance with the science and logics. Whe should be cautious about these hate crame activities and these are situations in which it is necessary to take some measures. The fact that the Europoid(West Eurasian) Y-DNA haplogroup L1a is found within such a deep-rooted Turkish family, shows again that during the Proto Turk, Sakha, Hun and Gök Türk periods these type of Europoid Y-DNA haplogroups could be found, in future ancient dna studies.

SOURCE: "Jāmiʻat al-Malik ʻAbd al-ʻAzīz. Maʻhad Shuʻūn al Aqallīyat al-Muslimah"
https://www.google.com/search?q=+Journa ... olumes+7-8

(Original from the University of Virginia)Institute of Muslim Minority Affairs, Jāmiʻat al-Malik ʻAbd al-ʻAzīz. Maʻhad Shuʻūn al Aqallīyat al-Muslimah (1986). Journal Institute of Muslim Minority Affairs, Volumes 7-8. The Institute. p. 385. Retrieved December 20, 2011. "certain that Muslims of Central Asian originally played a major role in the Yuan (Mongol) conquest and subsequent rule of south-west China, as a result of which a distinct Muslim community was established in Yunnan by the late 13th century AD. Foremost amongst these soldier-administrators was Sayyid al-Ajall Shams al-Din Umar al-Bukhari (Ch. Sai-tien-ch'ih shan-ssu-ting). a court official and general of Turkic origin who participated in the Mongol invasion of Szechwan ... And Yunnan in c. 1252, and who became Yuan Governor of the latter province in 1274–79. Shams al-Din - who is widely believed by the Muslims of Yunnan to have introduced Islam to the region - is represented as a wise and benevolent ruler, who successfully "pacified and comforted" the people of Yunnan, and who is credited with building Confucian temples, as well as mosques and schools"
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Re: Haplogrup L, T, R ve Haplotipler Hakkında Bir Tartışma

Mesajgönderen TurkmenCopur » 07 May 2015, 04:31

newtoboard yazdı:You are the one making a radical claim. The onus of providing proof is on you. Because right now you are selling us a ridiculous theory and nobody is biting.


Haha lol, you must be kidding, or maybe you have some reading problems because i wrote down my arguments, or does your IQ not allow to make any logical determinations? If so, feel free to not participate in the discussion :)
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Re: Haplogrup L, T, R ve Haplotipler Hakkında Bir Tartışma

Mesajgönderen TurkmenCopur » 07 May 2015, 04:33

Agamemnon yazdı:Eh, "Altaic" doesn't even count as a valid phylum in my book, so there's that.


You are quite informative, arent you :)

Agamemnon yazdı:Putting the turkocentric/turanist nonsense aside, do you actually have anything to back up your outlandish claims?


Putting your hatred against Turks and Turkish history aside, do you have anything to say about the so the many content i have shared in this topic? Or cant you read? I can you help you with that, i am serious.

ModBot yazdı:[[COLOR="#FF0000"]MOD[/COLOR]] Please be advised that you are in breach of site rule 3.11:

This is a [COLOR="#FF0000"]WARNING[/COLOR]. Any further violations of the forum's rules will result in the temporary or permanent revocation of your posting privileges. Thank you for your cooperation.


Seriously, i think you did not read the messages of newtoboard, Agamemnon and Humanist, full with off topic content :) I mean no disrespect.

Agamemnon yazdı:Refrain from using inflammatory language, you've already been warned. Don't force me to reiterate.

Again, drop the inquisitive and downright insulting tone immediately, or else.


Ok, mister Adolf Hitler, wannabe Neo Nazi unscientific Turk hater, i will do as you say, but you need to first obey your own rules, then accuse me with non logical arguments.

Agamemnon yazdı:Dear brownie,

You have received a warning at Anthrogenica.

Reason:
-------
Inappropriate Language

Refrain from using inflammatory language, this is your first warning. We can discuss such matters in a civilized way, no matter how outlandish one's theories are. There's no need to use downright insulting language.
Apply yourself.

-Agag
-------

Original Post:
[post]83121[/post]
newtoboard yazdı:You are the one making a radical claim. The onus of providing proof is on you. Because right now you are selling us a ridiculous theory and nobody is biting.


Haha lol, you must be kidding, or maybe you have some reading problems because i wrote down my arguments, or does your IQ not allow to make any logical determinations? If so, feel free to not participate in the discussion :)


Warnings serve as a reminder to you of the forum's rules, which you are expected to understand and follow.

All the best,
Anthrogenica

Are you kidding me? Isnt this your message "Putting the turkocentric/turanist nonsense aside, do you actually have anything to back up your outlandish claims"? You are the one commenting off topic text, that is uncivilized, it is more pathetic to accuse me like you dont know what the situation is, you are quite civilized arent you?



Agamemnon yazdı:Brownie has been banned, trust me I've dealt with Turanists by the past and there's no way to make them see reason (and that's putting the personal attacks and inflammatory language aside).
I trust this is for the best, we can all return to discussing this topic like grown-ups now.

Bu Türk düşmanı, beyninin İQ'sü çok düşük olan aşşağılık amerikan sevicisi namussuz ve basit şahıslar, açık açık Türk düşmanı olduklarını itiraf ediyorlar, zavallı, sitenizi yesinler.

Agamemnon yazdı:Brownie has been banned, trust me I've dealt with Turanists by the past and there's no way to make them see reason (and that's putting the personal attacks and inflammatory language aside).
I trust this is for the best, we can all return to discussing this topic like grown-ups now.


I was reading this topic, and came across this awfull comment. I condemn you for acting as a racist. And i am not a Turk, i am an English female women, i am a lawyer. Is there another admin that can demand accountability of such a inhuman and lowly action? You are openly confessing that you banned that user for just being a Turk. This is a serious crime, namely a hate crime, which is punishable by law, i am just suggesting that you should be careful when posting such racist comments.

ADW_1981 yazdı:pwned.
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Re: Haplogrup L, T, R ve Haplotipler Hakkında Bir Tartışma

Mesajgönderen TurkmenCopur » 07 May 2015, 19:24

vettor yazdı:Hmm...11 posts then banned.

Lesson is ..............never mix nationalism and genetics ...........they have never married well together.

!?!! I think I listening to Jaqen H'ghar too much


You are contradicting yourself. I think the lesson is that smarmy persons do not have honour. It does not matter if you ban this guy, the points in his arguments matter, to which you all are so afraid to reply.
If you are seeking to discuss the matter scientifically, you should provide your counter arguments, i could not see this happening.

For example what answer is given to the contents of this article at http://www.turktoresi.com/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=12277 ? Are all points been discussed one by one, or did you you just ban
that guy, to get rid of him? You know this is has nothing to do with scientific history and genetics?

Do you see any answer being commented to this question?

If you are using an argument like "highest frequencies", then please feel free to share the data that is backing up your argument.

1. Altaian Kosh-Agach tribes of the Kazakh Turks: 38,8%(19/49) of haplogroup T

2. Bhutanese person with ID "Bhu-1892": Most basal haplotype of haplogroup T

3. Quechua tribe of the Natives of Peru: 27,3%(3/11) of T

4. Shia Muslims from India: 28%(7/25) of T

5. Azerbaijan Turks from Iran: 7.9%(5/63) of T

6. 15th century Sayyid Ajjal Shams al-Din Omar with Turk origin: L1a

7. Altaic Xibo: 12,5%(1/8) of T

8. Altaic, Uralic and Dravidian languages: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10966

9. Dravidians: 52.6%(10/19) and 55.6%(10/18) of T

10. Dravidians: are just like the Turks, the descendants of the Proto Turk Sumerians(Kangars/Kengers)

11. The historical scientific source "Jāmiʻat al-Malik ʻAbd al-ʻAzīz. Maʻhad Shuʻūn al Aqallīyat al-Muslimah" that writes obviously: Sayyid al-Ajall Shams al-Din Umar al-Bukhari (Ch. Sai-tien-ch'ih shan-ssu-ting). a court official and general of Turkic origin.
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Re: Haplogrup L, T, R ve Haplotipler Hakkında Bir Tartışma

Mesajgönderen TurkmenCopur » 07 May 2015, 19:39

Agamemnon yazdı:Brownie has been banned, trust me I've dealt with Turanists by the past and there's no way to make them see reason (and that's putting the personal attacks and inflammatory language aside).
I trust this is for the best, we can all return to discussing this topic like grown-ups now.


ANTHROGENICA IS A RACIST SITE FULL WITH MEMBERS COMMITTING HATE CRIME AGAINST TURKS AND TURK HISTORY, YOU ARE SO EASY TO SOLVE :))))
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